Amy Dunne (Gone Girl)
Absent or broken pic
Absent or broken pic
Sociopath.. Well how is she impulsive ? She is a cold-headed, long-term planner, machiavellian mastermind.. She is therefore NTJ. Again motive cannot be explained by the MBTI, you make it to be more than it is. The motive a NTJ + 3 isn't the same as an NTJ + 1 or an NTJ + 6. And the functionning of a certain enneagram type is different according to the person and his/her MBTI type. "How does her non-plan-related personality suggest INTJ?" Since she is a 3, who are never really themselves (she says herself she changes personnality by pulling off a switch) how can YOU be sure she's an F ? The first part of her story can't be relied on because she's not herself, she's "Amazing Amy", the "Cool Girl", all those terms refer to a ROLE she plays. Once the mask falls off we see she's not a feeler, she just uses people the way she knows how to do to achieve her goal. If by being emotionnal you mean she idealizes and works towards an unrealistic version of herself (Amazing Amy), then she is, but that's 3 and not F. How she executes her plan is non-emotionnal, meticulous, goal oriented, cool headed ; that's Te.
Oh yeah... She is emotional... How so is open for interpretation. I feel Fincher left alot to be decided by us. She isn't black and whit at all and alot of her motives are blurry to say the least. I know Si and ISTJ would be odd given her character, but doesn't her odd motives relate more to her psychopathy than her personality? I believe the preparation and execution of her plan was pretty meticulous, all things aside.
I don't mean Fe-Ti is emotion driven whole Te-Fi is not, I was responding to Moolfreet's assertion that she was unemotional. I agree she doesn't have to be Ni but I don't remember thinking Si when I watched it. But I'm not really prepared to defend that either.
And no I'm not really prepared to defend my position further but its an interesting prospect.
Hmmm. I am not too sure with Fe either. Her planning is too flawless to be a non Te type. But I'm also not too sure of INTJ. She doesn't have to an N-type in my opinion. Besides most of her personality is subject to how you perceive her and ... well her being a psychopath. I disagree with the assertion though that Fe-Ti is emotion driven while Te-Fi is not. Basically Fi would be more personal (and genuine) emotional drive while Fe a more collective (and sometimes not so genuine) emotional drive... Also given the perfection she seeks and the thoroughness in her plans, I see ISTJ. It might be a strange vote but I'm digging it in my mind :D I would change my vote when I can see something else. Her cool girl persona is a well thought out, well prepared act... Her forging of diaries and setting things up is too meticulous. I see Si-Te with pretty evident Fi... I don't see Fe to be honest. Perhaps I am not seeing right. I might rewatch and reevaluate but here is my conjecture: ISTJ.
The true Amy isn't a "nice FJ" (obviously, because she's a sociopath) but she's a bad FJ, not a T. If you strip everything to do with her manipulation and plan off because she's a 3 then the only things left to analyze are her motive and behavior. The motive is easy to explain with Fe but not at all with Te/Fi and she's clearly emotion-driven. How does her non-plan-related personality suggest INTJ? As I've shown, she doesn't execute her scheme so she can wound Nick for not letting her be her authentic self but so she can wound him for disregarding all the work she put into keeping up the Cool Girl persona for the sake of their marriage. That's totally Fe-based, Enneagram 3 or not.
And the thing is that motive has nothing to do with MBTI, enneagram does. The MBTI is about your mental functionning but it can't explain everything. Human motivation is ALWAYS irrationnal whatever your type is : what makes you want this or avoid that, and why ? It all comes down to childhood, and in Amy's case, what she had to do was to compete with the "Amazing Amy" her parent created; she had to be perfect (a fake somebody) and make Nick perfect too. "that explains a lot of her "T" traits but none of her Fe traits." : your arguments (including the first ones, the basis of your typing) are about her emotionnal manipulation. And being 3 explains all of them; they are chameleons who KNOW what's expected of them, and they are machines who know how to fake it : "The way some women change fashion regularly, I change personalities. What persona feels good, what’s coveted, what's au courant?" + ".. To pull off a switch" What makes her look FJ is her fake self, her personna, the "Cool Girl", but once she's not that anymore we see her true self, Amy isn't the F she fakes to be (the perfect Amazing Amy). The entire story is about what's behind the curtain, appearances. Amy fools the people around her and beats the system (the media) by faking to be a nice FJ girl but I find alarming that many movie spectators are also fooled by appearances when they know the whole story.
I'm no Enneagram expert but I'd assume it changes characteristics outside of the functions rather than the functions themselves. So given that I've shown ample evidence of Fe in Amy beyond her manipulativeness alone, if Amy indeed is a 3 and Threes are more common amongst T types, that explains a lot of her "T" traits but none of her Fe traits. Remember my argument isn't that she's manipulative and therefore Fe but that her motive and the manner in which she plans/executes plans all point toward Fe. Her Fe is just stripped of recognizably sentimental qualities because she's sociopathic. And on your comment about her being unemotional, I'm not at all sure where that even comes from. She is incredibly emotional, just in a really twisted way. Her entire motive is purely emotion-based (and again, Fe).
What kills me is that Amy has less enneagram 3 votes than Nick when she's like one of the best examples of that type that I know of : ( http://maaarine.tumblr.com/post/99503070673/ennéagramme-gone-girl-amy-elliott-dunne-type-3 ) That's where the manipulation comes from. Being unauthentic is the core of this type. 3s don't want to be nobodies and prefer to be fake somebodies, so they adapt to others. But it should not be mixed up with being fake in a Fe way : type 3 is predominantly represented by T types, and Amy is clearly not emotionnal or sentimental herself. She just adapts depending on what she needs, to her people are means to achieve her goals. She manipulates by pragmatism. People see her as an F because she's a woman (same thing with Vee from Orange Is The New Black). No one questions the NTJness of Frank Underwood, Petyr Baelish or even Tom Riddle, though they're all very talented manipulators. Amy and Vee are the same : they're cold, pragmatic and calculating, they're not feelers.
Also, her motive is completely Fe-based: she worked incredibly hard to be "Cool Girl" for him, thus sacrificing her authenticity for the sake of their relationship/marriage. "We were happy pretending to be other people. We were the happiest couple we knew. And what's the point of being together if you're not the happiest? But Nick got lazy. He became someone I did not agree to marry. He actually expected me to love him unconditionally. Then he dragged me, penniless, to the navel of this great country and found himself a newer, younger, bouncier cool girl." When he has the affair, it makes all the pretending and "forging the man of [her] dreams" amount to nothing, so she decides to take revenge.
Yeah. Both Fi and Fe can manipulate people emotionally if the users are sociopaths, the way to decide is just in the matter of how. I'll have to re-watch the movie again for further comments.
*around the emotional effect she predicted it would have on others
She is willing to use people as pawns because she's a sociopath. Nothing to do with Te/Fi. Also INFJs can plan and enjoy planning, they extravert judging after all. And actually, she ALWAYS thinks about the consequences of her acts on other people—she just wants them to be bad because again, she’s a sociopath. Her entire plan rested on the expectation that the world would believe the fake Amy persona she very elaborately created in her diary using Fe: "You need a diary. Mínimum three hundred entries on the Nick and Amy story. Start with the fairy-tale early days: those are true, and they're crucial. You want Nick and Amy to be likable. After that, you invent. The spending, the abuse, the fear, the threat of violence. And Nick thought he was the writer... burn it, just the right amount. Make sure the cops will find it. Finally, honor tradition with a very special treasure hunt. And if I get everything right, the world will hate Nick for killing his beautiful, pregnant wife.” Also look at the manner in which she seduced and manipulated Desi Collings. Again, pure Fe (albeit psycho) emotional manipulation. She certainly knew how her behavior would affect Desi and acted accordingly. Also don't forget at the end she convinces the cops to drop the investigation altogether purely through faking emotions that will get them to sympathize with her. Again, she definitely thought about what effect that would have on others. Not to mention the act was so convincing that it worked. INTJs would have a much harder time believably faking those complex emotions and definitely wouldn’t build the centerpiece of their plan around the emotional effect it would have on others. Excellent character though, I agree.
I can't see her as a INFJ, she is very Fi (she NEVER thinks about the consequences of her acts on other people. Actually she never see people as real person... they are just pawns in her game and she uses them. She has a strategic view of people. They are either useful or useless for her. It's very egocentric and very Fi) Also she likes to plan, and gosh she planned everything perfectly and ENJOYED doing that. It's very Te. I can't think of any Ti who likes to plan everything just for the pleasure of planning something in such detail and with such desire of perfection. As for the said "emotional manipulation" it's like Franck in House of Cards... she doesn't manipulate people emotionally, she manipulate them by fear, money (as with her husband), sexe (as with her ex) and by leaving them no other choice/by threatening them (as with her husband in the end) These manipulation methods are the ones used by Te dom. She is a very creepy INTJ, but I love her character ;-)
Her incredible powers of emotional manipulation point to INFJ. Both INxJs can mastermind elaborate plans but an INTJ would not have been able to execute a plan that required as much emotional manipulation as Amy's. Also her motive was purely emotional. People vote INTJ because of her masterminding I guess but a closer look at the nature of her masterminding makes INFJ clear.
Idk much French, but it looks like one comment said INFJ, one said not INFJ. Anybody wanna give thoughts on INFJ vs INTJ?
Complètement d'accord avec Kyriette et Apo. Je vois zéro Fe. Ses motifs sont clairement égocentrés : un Fi mal placé. Limite INFP serait même plus cohérent qu'INFJ. Mais il est évident qu'un INFP serait incapable d'élaborer un plan aussi diabolique et (presque) sans failles. Son Te est très fort donc INTJ pour moi.
Elle a zero Fe, impossible qu'elle soit INFJ. Son cote calculateur et extremement et methodiquement organise vient du Te. Elle est INTJ et non INFJ. Et puis il faut arreter de penser que les INTJ sont 100% robotiques, c'est totalement faux, le MBTI explique les comportement mais pas les motifs des gens. D'ailleurs les INTJ ont le Fi en 3em position, ce qui ressort assez souvent quand meme. L'INTJ peut derailler completement quand son Fi est vexe. D'ailleurs son comportement egoiste qui ne tient en compte que de ses propres desirs puerils, vexations et interets (donc tourne sur sois) est tellement Fi ... Je ne sais pas si tu connais des INFJ IRL mais ils sont totalement different, et tres tourne vers les "autres", quand ils sont deviant, c'est plutot du genre Hitler a vouloir convertir les gens a leurs causes, c'est ca le Fe. Amy n'est rien de tout ca, c'est elle, elle et elle meme avant tout, donc Fi, et donc INTJ (Ni/Te/Fi)
Pour moi elle est INFJ du début à la fin. Elle est aussi gravement dérangée. Il faut se mettre à sa place, ses parents écrivent l'histoire de Amazing Amy, une version améliorée, fantasmée de sa propre vie, comme si sa vraie vie était décevante pour ses parents. En plus, ils jettent ça sur la place publique, elle n'a plus alors qu'à vivre dans l'ombre de Amazing Amy, qu'elle n'est au fond pas du tout. Je ne vais pas faire de psychanalyse de comptoir mais normalement l'amour des parents sert de modèle. Or ses parents n'aiment pas Amy, ils aiment leur version fantasmée d'Amy. Du coup sa vision de l'amour est juste complètement malsaine : "faire illusion pour devenir ce que l'autre veux que je sois, et c'est comme ça que les mariages fonctionnent." Pour moi elle n'a rien de quelqu'un qui exécute froidement un plan pour des raisons égocentriques, il n'y a rien de rationnel dans ses plans, du moins rien de Te comme définit dans le MBTI. D'ailleurs ses plans ne sont pas si efficaces et carrés, ils sont faits avec une grande compréhension de comment les autres vont réagir, et ça c'est Fe. Ça marche parce qu'elle est très intelligente et que la masse des gens telle que présentée dans le film est plutôt bête. Tout a à voir avec un Fe profondément humilié "je fais tout pour qu'il m'aime et il me trompe, il m'humilie, il me ment". Elle ne peut pas supporter le fait qu'il finisse par aimer une autre fille qui est naturellement comme il les aime et qui n'a donc pas fait d'effort pour être comme ça, plutôt qu'elle qui fait tous les efforts du monde pour correspondre à son idéal. Après bien sur elle dégage beaucoup de froideur, elle semble jouer ce Fe quand elle fait ses crêpes ou qu'elle sert gentiment le thé, c'est vrai, mais INFJ quand même. Pour ce qui est de l'ennéagramme, ça me fait penser à du 2 désintégré en 8, presque en mode femme fatale, mais l'état de mes connaissances dans ce domaine est loin de me permettre d'en dire plus.
Pas INFJ, elle n'est pas du tout Fe, très Te et très Fi au contraire. (Te -> exécution minutieuse de ses plans ; Fi -> motifs égocentriques) <br>Pour l'ennéagramme c'est intéressant. Il y a un vote 4w3 Sx/Sp, ça ne me paraît pas impossible (mais alors, à condition qu'elle soit INTJ), l'autre possibilité étant 3w4. Elle a clairement ce côté compétitif qu'on décrit souvent, concernant le 4w3. Mais en même temps, elle me paraît quand même très proactive, et s'identifie vraiment à une image positive d'elle (ce qui est 3). C'est là qu'on voit l'ambiguïté entre les deux. Je me demande si certaines descriptions 4 Sx ne sont pas en fait trop caricaturales, à vouloir balayer les clichés.