Literary, Philosophy and Psychology World
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Literary, Philosophy and Psychology World
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I feel so fucking confused about him now, not because of the crap people write here but my own research.
I don't think he specifically referred to his Nazism as a misstep, but his previous philosophy was connected to Nazism to the point that he was made some kind of school leader and he was making all kinds of grandiose plans where his philosophy, leadership of the school and nazism would be in harmony -- though he became disenchanted with it when he realized the nazis weren't really on the same wavelength as him and that it wasn't very practical. This was about the time his philosophy started going over from the systematic phenomenology type thing he did at first and turning into the more anti-systematic, sage-like thing he did in his later years. He had been part of the modern "over-systematization" of everything when he was younger (which I'm pretty sure he sees nazism as an outroot of), which was a misstep, and now he wanted sort of to return to the roots. I don't remember where I got everything from, just stuff I remember hearing, so take it for what you think it's worth.^^ I agree with Hannah Arendt in the sense that Heidegger was an airhead, deeply lost in his weird thinking, and not really someone who would get fanatical at nazi rallies or something, or enjoyed hurting people or whatever ... In this sense you have to forgive all the office clerks, soldiers, etc. too though. They were only "doing their thing" and happened to align themselves with the wrong movement, like Eichmann that Arendt presents as a kind of clerkish fulfiller of duties who was just in the wrong system. "Evil is boring and plain." Some people do think Arendt is too forgiving and that the way she made Heidegger and Eichmann look harmless is not very accurate though. Arendt (INTP) was actually an extremely provocative figure in her time and seemed to enjoy the devil's advocate role like when she partly laid the blame on Jewish communities, IIRC, for not being stricter against nazism when it first showed up. I think the reason Heidegger never explicitly apologized was because he was always thinking about things in terms of his extremely, big complicated systems so he didn't want to reduce his feelings and everything to something as simple as, "I'm sorry." It's like when he famously rejects that existentialism is humanism and then more or less describes humanism, lol. He also seems to have been quite a prideful person, so perhaps it didn't come easy to him to admit such a fatal fault directly either. And Thomas Mann explicitly denounced nazism from the start, yes, but he still connected nazism to romanticism which he found himself attracted to. Anyway, the point of putting the two together is not that they are similar or whether they are nazis or not, the point is simply that a probable INFJ (Heidegger) had negative views of over-systematization, over-explanation etc. and directed blame towards this for all kinds of problems whereas Thomas Mann (INTJ) saw a lot of dangers in emotionalism, romanticism, etc. Which seems to suggest philosophers often justify their own temperaments like Nietzsche said that they all actually did. :P
Do you have any source in which Heidegger mentions his nazism being a major misstep? As you already mention, he never really apologized for being a nazi. Perhaps he internalized it? I just have trust in Hannah Arendt's opinion on Heidegger, who forgave him. Thomas Mann on the other hand explicitly denounced nazism from the start, so I don't even know how you can mention the two in the same sentence. I think the holocaust might be a result of a misunderstanding or misreading of Kant, at least in the case of Adolph Eichmann.
This makes me thing more and more, that the TV version of Hannibal is an INTJ with very strong -but twisted- Fi after all.
Yeah, I tried to look at the video and found it a bit too hard to judge, because it's all in German and Germans from that time period generally seem kind of ... ehhhh, intense. Also since it's old TV and stuff and he speaks in such an elaborate way maybe it is scripted or something? So I ended up speaking just in general, lol. But yes, I can imagine the more "sincere" writers being even more charismatic than Sanderson who is not exactly in he danger of winning a Nobel Prize (although you never know with those hipsters) having even heavier Fi, and I think when you have a lot of Fi combined and creativity combined with the INTJs Ni+Te you get a very learned, opinionated but reasonable, wryly funny person who obviously has their heart on the right place - pure charisma.
I definitely wouldn't call Sanderson as charismatic as Mann comes off, at least in that video I posted. Maybe he knew he had to have his social aspect develop in order to promote his works and his opinions. Maybe he was a social type of INTJ.
I recommend not being so sure about what philosophers think, babblingbrook. >.< They often change their ideas over their life, contradict themselves, and it's very easy to develop some personal understanding of whatever theory which is actually not in line with their actual arguments ... For example I thought I was an expert on Descartes (like who doesn't understand Descartes?) until I did a class on the Mediations and oh dear did I have many things the wrong way. Anyway, though Heidegger never explicitly apologized or anything like that, he did consider his early philosophy and it leading him into nazism a major misstep and developed a later arguably anti-systematic, anti-rational philosophy (which has been a huge influence on a lot of philosophers like Derrida), blaming alienation, the coldness and unfairness of society, and indirectly the possibility of something like the Holocaust on us becoming a technical, effective society and losing touch with the infinite, holy, irrational incomprehensibility of our mysterious existence, or something like that, which is what "being" somewhat comes to mean in his later philosophy. He wants to return to a sort of religious way of living, where we see ourselves together as under something higher than ourselves and where we live by shared, old truths that speak to our souls rather than our minds. And even if Thomas Mann was an expatriate, he was definitely interested in Nazism and how it could happen, etc. He is a very political/social writer. I do agree there is an attraction to romanticism in Thomas Mann (arguably the traction between romanticism and rationalism is a core conflict in all his writing), but in his later works it is definitely the boring, dry, old humanist that wins out in the end, I think. @bobnickmad: I don't know. For what it's worth "the culture INTJ", like Jonathan Franzen, Brandon Sanderson and Nietzsche to make an almost obscene mismatch of writers, generally seem to be very charismatic people.^^
Tonio Kroger is one of the books that felt most close to me emotionally, so based on that I could see INFP. But his way of approaching writing is too systematic, having clear idea of what themes and archetypes each of his book explore, so I think INTJ with hell of a strong Fi (like Nietzsche) could fit. He explored in depth the role of the artist in society, which could explain his thing for main Fi-dom characters. There seems to be something about INFPs that makes them really interesting characters for Ni-doms to write about. The thing is, I also read he was quite present in the literary circles, and a good host and speaker, maybe it was for practical reasons, to promote his writing? He also seems quite animated here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47neW--DWEY How do you explain this INFJ-ish aspects, #butterfly ?
While Heidegger is one of my fav philosophers, he was affiliated with nazism, while Mann was an expatriate. I have never read anything about Heidegger blaming nazism, instead he seemed somewhat indifferent and a-political. Thomas Mann was quite outspoken, as can be heard in the Deutsche Hörer radio broadcasts for example. I'd say Mann was trying to voice the opposite; to let German people get in touch with their cultural roots and appeal to the true German spirit, i.e. Romanticism. Goethe is the first Romanticist icon/figure he quotes in the first episode of Deutsche Hörer. I'm not saying Thomas Mann can't be an INTJ. I just share my observations. Susan Sontag seems like an INTJ writer to me.
That's an incredibly weak argument for INFP. :P We have to take you on your word, as most of us haven't read Buddenbrook, and it's not given that a character based on someone is going to have the same type. Buddenbrooks was a realist novel, so maybe he over-emphasized his artistic side to capture "the artist" or something? Who knows. Meanwhile there are several anecdotes about how severe Thomas Mann could be (Te) and how INxJ-ish his books are with characters that personify philosophical currents, etc. As for statement on Nazi Germany which you call nonsense, this time with NO arguments, it's based on how Heidegger later spoke of his earlier thinking as having been "too Nietzschean"/systematic, and how that is our fall from the grace of being bla bla bla, and Thomas Mann's Doctor Faustus where Adrian Leverkühn's romanticism is clearly meant to mirror the fall into nazism. Also if Thomas Mann is not an INTJ writer, what do you think an INTJ writer/humanities person is like? By the way, I think there are some similarities to Jonathan Franzen (INTJ) who is also famous for being very ironic, political and socially attuned.
Hanno Buddenbrook seems INFP, the character he modelled himself after. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddenbrooks#Hanno_.28Justus_Johann_Kaspar.29_Buddenbrook_.281861.E2.80.931877.29 Complete utter nonsense regarding Heidegger's and Mann's attitude towards Nazi Germany: By the way, this is something I suddenly thought about, but it's interesting how F-types like Heidegger and Wittgenstein will blame Nazi Germany on the world having become too effective, systematized, logical; whereas to Thomas Mann (INTJ) it's an outgrowth of romanticist art, and people being ruled too much by emotions. This is the kind of thing that makes me feel like Nietzsche was ultimately right in saying that intellectuals are always only trying to justify their own temperaments.
Mann rejected INTJ Nietzsche. Another proof Mann is INFP - among a thousand ones.
Aren't INFPs the cutest? "Because only beauty, he added, is lovely and visible at the same time: it is, nota bene, the only way in which we can receive and bear the intellect. Or what would become of us when the divine in general, reason, virtue, and truth would be available like this to our senses? Would we not burn and die from love, like Semele before Zeus? Thus beauty is the way of the feeling one to reach the mind—only a way, a means, my little Phaedo… And then he landed his finest blow, the seasoned charmer: That the lover would be more divine than the beloved because God was in the former but not in the latter—perhaps the most tender and jocular notion ever conceived and the source of all waggishness and hidden wantonness of desire. The happiness of writers is the thought that can be entirely emotion and the emotion that can be entirely thought. Such a pulsing thought, such a precise emotion belonged to the solitary one then: namely that nature was shaken with delight when the mind paid homage to beauty. Suddenly he wanted to write. Eros loves idleness and is made for it, but in this stage of his condition the mind of the afflicted was set on production, the immediate cause was almost irrelevant." -Death in Venice.
This is kind of random. PILGRIMAGE By Susan Sontag (meeting her hero Thomas Mann when she was 14). The New Yorker Dec 21 1987. Spanish version in case you speak it like me. I think I read this like a month ago. http://www.ddooss.org/articulos/textos/Sontag_Mann.htm
Mom, this spamming addiction is destroying the family. You both need to leave it and seek therapy. For me pls. :'(
Can't talk to him because Daddy is too busy spamming other entries.
Mom, are you slowly and diligently spamming INFP votes without an argument for it. I think you should call dad and settle your differences.
Mom, an actual argument for INFP would be nice.
Do your homework, kids. INFP INFP INFP INFP INFP INFP INFP INFP INFP INFP INFP INFP INFP INFP INFP INFP INFP INFP INFP INFP INFP INFP INFP INFP INFP INFP INFP INFP INFP INFP INFP INFP INFP INFP INFP INFP INFP INFP INFP INFP INFP INFP INFP INFP INFP INFP INFP INFP INFP INFP INFP INFP INFP INFP
Yeah, it's interesting, specially the part where you say that he saw Nazi Germany as an out-growth or romanticism and irresponsible, people controled by strong feelings sounds indeed Te. After, I think it's this sense of misguided romanticism and anti-rationalism that made important writers go towards extremist doctrines, like Knut Hamsun or Yukio Mishima (likely INFJs) and it's seems the approach of a rationalist rather than an NF towards such thinking.
By the way, this is something I suddenly thought about, but it's interesting how F-types like Heidegger and Wittgenstein will blame Nazi Germany on the world having become too effective, systematized, logical; whereas to Thomas Mann (INTJ) it's an outgrowth of romanticist art, and people being ruled too much by emotions. This is the kind of thing that makes me feel like Nietzsche was ultimately right in saying that intellectuals are always only trying to justify their own temperaments.
Noooo, not quite. I think Mann sees writers as some sort of "cultural engineers" who strongly influence how people think, act, vote, etc. For example later in his life he definitely goes into that tradition of seeing Nazi Germany as some sort of outgrowth of romanticist art and culture - which was "irresponsible", having people become too intoxicated with and controlled by strong feelings. He thus seems to give writers the same position in society as many philosophers give themselves; leading the people to the right (or wrong) way. So basically he seems to write to *make the right impact on society* (kind of like a politician/philosopher) (Te) rather than as part of a genuine, natural inclination towards regarding people and the world in terms of communities (Fe). I hope this makes any sense, lol!
You mean in the sense that an INTJ would have believe that what they do it's a crucial contribution to the culture that will be remembered after their death, sort of setting an example for the high standards they expect from others?
What I meant with Te wanting to make an impact is ... Or at least what I was thinking about, lol, was that I often feel like INTJs have some very logical reason for writing books. It's sort of like a medium for achieving some third thing. You don't often get that in INFJs and INFPs. To Thomas Mann it seems like he sees his books as a kind of contribution to his culture/society, kind of like how you would have your opinion in a newspaper published - only far more complex and extensive. So that's why I think he focuses on those social themes, as opposed to an INFJ who rather can't seem to help writing a book without in some way being a shepherd for humans, it's just something fundamental to how they view the world. I don't know if that makes any sense.
An INFP would write a story for its own sake (starting from a plot idea or a character) and the themes would spring from the story. But Mann's books are always a development of a them and allegories, like Butterfly explained below for example.
Don't know about other vote but one is mine. I always thought of him as INFP. His focus is almost always through Fi to just be developed puerile function. But I guess I can see INTJ aswell. I'll change vote
Huh, how did those two INFP votes appear suddenly. He's an obvious J type, the way he writes his book as a way to develop a theme it's clear mark of a Ni-dom writer.
Yeah, that distant way of being a father doesn't really seem high Fe. Not that an INTJ would be necessary like that, it's just that it makes more sense with Te. The reason I thought he was INFJ was because one of my favorite character based piece of literature is his Tonio Kroger. It had a huge emotional impact on me, and I identified strongly with the main character.Thomas Mann said that it was also one of his favorite of his works and that it was auto-biographical (I also saw someone typing Tonio Kroger as INFJ). I guess that Tonio Kroger is more of an INFP or ISFP than, which would explain my strong self-identification, and in that book he dealt with his own interior Fi-dom. Really strong Fi in there if so.There's also his famed sense of irony and sarcasm in his books.For example, one of his books, ''The Holy Sinner'' was deemed blasphemous by some, and asked if he's not afraid by the reaction, Mann responded something like ''I don't worry, I'm pretty sure God has a sense of humor'', lol. That seems INTJ sense of humor, Nietzsche had plenty of it as well. I'm not sure what the part of Te wanting to make an impact, but Te and Fe would want to, but in what way Te and Fe would be different here?
All his books are about society, history, etc., but I think this is about wanting to write books that make an impact (Te) rather than a question of Fe. The Magic Mountain, for example, uses a sanatorium to represent Germany at the time and has these incredibly weird, eccentric characters that represent different tendencies in the culture (Ni+Fi). For example there is a slightly ridiculous INFJ humanist who raves about society constantly and a very nervous INTP extremist who talks about all these very extreme things, like revolutions and how religion doesn't make sense. The main character is just this reasonable INTJ who walks around and listens to them discuss, sometimes also discussing with them (Ni+Te). I also think his later novel Doctor Faustus is fundamentally about a Fi conflict. On one hand you have Leverkühn who is willing to destroy himself completely to make the perfect artwork. On the other hand you have Zeitblom who is a tempered humanist with an unfaltering belief in human progress. Mann admitted they were both aspects of his personality. Doctor Faustus itself is also an allegory for what happened in Nazi Germany - as well as many other things (Ni). Furthermore, Mann is very prone to the same kind of somewhat cruel, quarrelsome ironical phrasings you find in the writing of Nietzsche (INTJ). It's a very recognizable part of his voice. In person Mann was also known to be a rather harsh person (Te). For example he ridiculed his son for wanting to be a writer, claiming any success he had was simply on account of his family name.